TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW ON 21 OCTOBER 2000
The following is a transcript of the Commission charged with the initial investigation of the Little Pebble. The Commission Meeting occurred on October 21, 2000. The questions presented below were offered by Fr. Kevin Matthews who also chaired the Meeting. The Meeting lasted a total of 50 minutes. The Little Pebble did not have the questions in advance, so he was not able to give comprehensive answers to such questions. Thus many more distinctions could have been brought forth had there been sufficient time to read and reflect on the questions in advance of the Meeting. The Little Pebble has decided not to give his signature to this transcript, as it is not an integral presentation of the truth of the matters concerning himself. He is currently writing a comprehensive answer for the Commission. The Little Pebble has decided to share this Q & A session with you for your edification. It will be clear to all, after reading it through -- just how unjust these proceeding really were. Questions 43 and 44 and his answers have been omitted for now. We will try to keep you posted as we go on these proceedings. Sincerely yours in Christ, Fr. Malcolm L. Broussard, Jr. November 14, 2000
The following interview with Mr William Kamm
took place in the Catholic Presbytery
at Saint Michael's Catholic Church, North Street, Nowra
New South Wales
on Saturday October 21, 2000 at 9.00a.m.
The interview was
conducted by
Rev Kevin Matthews JCD in the presence of
| Rev John Woods JCL |
Advocate for William Kamm |
| Rev Malcolm Broussard JCL * |
Witness |
| Mrs Adrienne Connaghan JCL |
Witness |
| Mrs Gail Holloway |
Notary |
* A typographical error by Commission Secretary -- Fr. Broussard does not have a Licentiate in Canon Law.
Are you prepared to take an oath to tell the truth in the testimony you will give to this enquiry?
Yes.
(hand on the bible) I swear.
To a degree, I can say so, yes.
I can see the anomaly but I don't agree with your statement.
Quite easy, because there are certain canon laws that govern also Father Broussard's situation which has been presented to the Catholic Church many times but has not been dealt with yet and therefore it is like a person that would be a Doctor who would be suspended for various reasons but he still remains a Doctor so does Father, he remains a priest.
No, there was to be an ordination but this man has died this week, obviously he is not a priest but that was in the plan yes.
First of all I am only obliged to follow according to the jurisdiction of the Church in my Diocese. As for Archbishop Pell and the other members of the Hierarchy they only follow protocol according to their jurisdiction and the Church was required from the very beginning in 1984 to open an ecclesiastical investigation. This investigation was prompted by me not by the Church therefore what you are saying is already an error.
No, Clemente declared himself Pope and made himself Pope, I did not declare myself Pope in the revelations that are given in the various messages, not only by myself, but some four hundred other mystics throughout the Church, it is revealed that I will be the Pope and not the next one but the last one, so therefore there is a great difference between what Clemente did and what I did.
Yes, I am fully aware of it.
I have not ignored his authority in any particular way, he has ignored his responsibility as a shepherd to guide his sheep, it is for this reason we have a second Commission because in the beginning we had no Commission and otherwise that in itself proves that the decision of Bishop William Murray was incorrect otherwise a second Commission would not have been instigated.
To say that I am constantly against Church teaching is not correct either.
I deny that totally.
Yes in reference to when they say $4,000,000 reference to me that is not correct, in reference to the Order of St Charbel that is correct.
11.What is your current financial situation?
I would say it would be about the same.
No.
No.
Yes, yes.
It is not approved in the sense that the Church has not accepted it yet but it has been offered to the Church for approval, first of all through Rome, through Monsignor Galante who is now an Archbishop, back in 1987 and from there onwards it has been presented to Rome some three times. As I have already mentioned before I have also seen the Holy Father on seven occasions and I have also received quite substantial support from the Ecclesiastical body in reference to their acknowledgement of the Order but still have to go through my local Bishop.
I don't agree with that Father.
I don't agree with that either and the reason why I don't agree with that is because you can solicit or be encouraged by other ecclesiastics from other dioceses in the world, if I desire to have this work approved by another diocese that is not against the canon laws.
Yes, but if I shift the home base to another diocese it can be approved by another Bishop which I have already proceeded to do, the Cardinal from Nigeria has already consented to the idea of the Order which I have already forwarded to you through e-mail and I have forwarded some nearly twenty documents of other ecclesiastics who have considered and are looking into the work of the Order and to say that the Church is not interested in what I am doing in its reference to its works is not correct.
Fr John Woods: Would you be holding that what Father Kevin said regarding the recognition by the Bishop is required and it would be your intention to seek that recognition and allow you an individual base to fulfil the requirement of Church law?
Because you see the thing is this that the purpose of me requesting the Bishop to have the investigation in the first place is to seek recognition not so much for myself personally but rather for the work that I have proceeded to do. Now, as this mission is already in some hundred and twenty countries right now, has quite a large following, there are many Bishops and well over a thousand priests involved in this work, so therefore that would indicate that something is coming from God. Now, what Bishop approves or accepts the work is only an additive to the work that you are doing which means that that Bishop would obviously contact my Bishop here to encourage the work and that has already occurred because the mission has already been approved in quite a lot of Dioceses and I have their letters and I have already forwarded those letters to Father Kevin.
But I still seek approval from my local diocese because I live here for a start.
19. The Introduction to the Constitutions states that the general aim of the "Order is unification of Eastern and Western Catholic Rites. There appears to be no awareness of the high regard the Church has for the ancient traditions of both the Western and the Eastern Churches and the witness they give to the apostolic heritage of the Church universal. The Second Vatican Council Decree, Orientalium ecclesiarum, 1964, makes clear that rather than destroy Rites by one unification, the Church urges Eastern churches to maintain their Rites as part of the heritage of the whole Church of Christ. Your Ignorance on how the Church really works is published and damaging to the unity already existing between the Churches. Can you see that difficulty?
No, not at all because I have had a lot of dealings with the Eastern Rite Churches and I was privileged to meet the Cardinal of the Oriental sector in Rome some years ago who acknowledged the work that I did for the Eastern Rites and he himself and many others of the same Rites have indicated how there was quite a division amongst the East and the West in the Catholic Church in spite of the fact of all that has been written over many centuries but there is definitely a wedge between East and West and he was very encouraged by the work that I was doing, matter of fact they were inundated in Rome with all the work that I was doing for the Eastern Rite.
Fr John Woods: Could I clarify the statement the work you were doing - was that by way of your conversation, perhaps annotating reporting or was it by way of document?
Mostly through the prayer groups dedicated to one of the Eastern Rites' arms in St Charbel and we have some forty five thousand groups all over the Catholic world and part of that is also in the Eastern Rite Churches.
Fr John Woods: So would their support be more in the nature of support of the spirituality rather than the constitution aspiration?
Yes, it would be more of that line.
Yes, Father.
Not at this stage.
Yes.
23. Are you prepared to go ahead with that schism?
No, because I do not believe that schism will occur because I am still a Roman Catholic, I have always been Roman Catholic, and so have all the members and I believe that even with this investigation and investigations to come in the future that the Church will approve this work eventually.
Well I see the Blessed Virgin Mary in vision, just like I see someone physically who actually appears in front of me, some six meters away usually and approximately about maybe four meters off the ground and all I can explain is that it is in a physical way I see her with my eyes.
First of all because of what she says and how she presents herself also the warmth and the light that I receive from the vision or what she says, her nodding to me, gives me much strength and peace and she does not only make the sign of the cross but she also gives me many indications through her communications that it is her.
Well that is between God and the Virgin Mary, it has nothing to do with me personally, whatever they wish to say that is their business and whatever Jesus says so does the Virgin Mary and whatever the Virgin Mary says so does Jesus because they, are one in their hearts and purpose.
I believe for first of all for my own salvation and edification and sanctification of course but also to bring her children closer to God and that is her will.
28. Why do you think you were chosen?
I don't think for any particular reason, the Blessed Virgin Mary has her own choices and anyone that is chosen from history is God's choice.
The reason why is because of all that I have just previously said because I know it is the Virgin Mary, I have certitude as all mystics and seers do otherwise I would not be able to preach what I am preaching and I believe the fruit that is all over the world is sufficient to prove that it is from God.
Well in God's plan as far as importance is concerned he has revealed that one day I will be the Vicar of Christ even though it looks totally impossible but God can do things that are impossible and that is what God has planned so obviously that is an important role, but for what I do right now is to try to build an Order for the Church and I believe it is succeeding and growing and developing and bringing many of God's children closer to him.
31. Would you say that you been redeemed?
All souls have to work for redemption. I believe that I am saved provided that I love and serve God in the best way in my conscience before God and his Church but like all men we are all sinners therefore I can be tempted and I can fall away from grace but at the same time I know that God loves me and I am a sinner like any other soul.
32. Do you ask forgiveness?
Yes, always.
33. Would you say then that you are a saint?
I don't think I am a saint yet but I try very hard to be one.
In God's eyes I would rank myself as a little soul that is seeking to love and serve him.
Fr John Woods: Would it be fair to say that the tenor of your answers points to that if not now then eventually this will come to pass?
Yes.
Fr John Woods: So would it also be fair to say that whatever the decision of this investigation in your mind by virtue of your graced position if I can put it that way there is almost as you would see it an inevitability that the new ecclesiastical process authorities will come to concur with what you have been given to believe?
Yes, I believe that.
Fr John Woods: So I go back, it is more not a matter of if but when?
That is correct.
Fr John Woods: I am just trying to put that by way of summary.
To me, well the way God reveals himself to me first of all has always been through the gospel and through the Church because I have been an ardent lover of Christ and his Church, I have worked very hard for his Church even before all of this began I worked in the Diocese in Wollongong for over ten years in spreading the work of God with Bishop McCabe and Father Leo Stephens. Over the last twenty years God has revealed himself in his presence Of, I don't even know what the word is in English, but in his body presence, seeing Christ the same as I see the Virgin Mary. He has spoken to me himself as Jesus of course, even the Eternal Father. He has made his presence known to me, also in my heart and in my soul even through inner locutions, that is the way he has expressed himself to me.
The Eternal Father, yes.
The same as the Eternal Son only not older but in white hair, rather than in goldish brown hair as Jesus, but I have seen the Eternal Father next to his son, I have seen the Holy Ghost in the form of the dove.
40. Jesus has said no one has seen the Father?
I don't agree with that and neither do you Father, no one has seen God in his fullness but the Saints over the last two thousand years have seen the Eternal Father and have also been approved by the Catholic Church.
They are important because in totality because they are the word of God, they are the word of God that brings us salvation, I have always loved the gospels and the whole scriptures old and new testament and they are of course the most important part of our faith apart from the sacraments of course.
I am in total belief of all dogmas otherwise I wouldn't be Roman Catholic, I profess my faith every day therefore the dogmas are very significant in my faith and doctrine of course.
On the grounds of the suspension of the law in reference to how God has revealed his word to me, which I have written quite extensively about and also supported by St Thomas Aquinas and quite a few other Saints in case of a prophet if God commands him to do whatever you are supposed to do it is justifiable because God commanded it therefore I proceed according to his word.
Not at all, not at all, it is also part of the moral teaching of the Church because it is written in the writings of the Doctors of the Church otherwise I would not have proceeded.
Yes, I believe in that because as there has not been much revealed about the second coming of the Messiah only the fact that he will be coming but it also says there will be a time where there will be a new heaven and a new earth and the revelations that have been given not only by myself but also by the Saints and I can give you many books from the writings of the Church about a new era to come which will be sinless, it is in scripture.
None.
That is correct, because I am the prophet.
No.
51.When she is a virgin?
True, but no not at all because if the Virgin Mary is revealing that to me as it has been confirmed by countless other mystics who also are under ecclesiastical investigation, some have already the support of the Church, it would indicate that what was revealed is true but it is still up to the Church to make that decision, it is not up to me, I am only the one receiving the revelation.
Fr John Woods: You said you had received a dispensation from the Father regarding sex outside marriage. Are you clear as to the purpose you were given this dispensation?
Yes, very clear.
Fr John Woods: Perhaps you could share that with us?
Like a decision from God to say that I will be the Father of many nations in the future, not only as the Vicar of Christ but also as one who will lead all God's people therefore in this case I would have more than one wife. This is not contrary to old teaching or even new if God so commands it, but it has to do with the reformation of the royal house of David and I am aware that the priests are called part of the royal house as far as the loyal priesthood, of course we are talking about a mystical life here and it is in God's plan to reform the twelve tribes of Israel which were basically destroyed back in the old testament but we are talking about an era that is yet to come, the golden era or the era where there will be no sin, no corruption, so therefore that is basically it.
52. How would you and the Pope differ today in terms of authority?
If I were Pope you mean?
No, at this moment?
In which way Father do you mean?
Yes, I will accept that, of course he is the Vicar of Christ.
Very important because they are all part of God's teaching and it has never been any different in the past though there is a lot of dispute between what the Vatican Council says and what is actually put into practice and that has been very well documented over the many decades but the Vatican Council are just as important as any other Council.
Theological teaching and learning based by the Church's teaching is important for the formation of souls and also the Church itself in as far as the priesthood is concerned.
Very important because it is by their blood, by their witness that they go forth the truth concerning Christ and his teaching.
Well they are important in as much as they are relevant to not only the age of its time but to me in my own understanding of God's teaching is that whether you have visions or whether it is the gospel which is also part of God's work, they all are relevant to each particular time in the centuries and these visions have importance in as much as to edify souls into believing and loving and serving God through his gospel and his Church.
Yes, of course, it is its duty and its authority to do so.
The same.
That is up to the Church to decide, if the Church decides right up to the last point which will be the Vicar of Christ that what I have taught in these last twenty years is an error I will accept that decision.
Provided that they follow according to canon law which have not done so far which I have already presented to you right from the beginning otherwise this second Commission would never have existed.
Yes.
No, I want to follow through with the Commission right to the very end.
I do Father.
Going back to the very beginning before the Commission even began in 1985 when I went to Bishop William Murray and that was only a half an hour that I was with him when I presented the messages to him, the decision was already made on December 2, with a pastoral letter to the Diocese to say that there was an ecclesiastical court, an ecclesiastical decision was made, I disputed that because there was nothing made, I only saw the bishop for half an hour and that was it and three messages were studied about what I had received and from that a decision was made. And it was from then 1985 until 1998 that I had appealed to the Bishop over and over again for an ecclesiastical Commission. Since that time as you are aware Father that the Bishop of Wollongong tried to close the Order down, now that was in the midstream of an investigation which started in September 98.
Now, according to Canon Law that is not possible because first of all I had not even been called to the Commission to give my evidence so therefore how can you close something down when you haven't even presented the evidence. Second of all I appealed to Rome, which is my right, under the canon law, and that was ignored. This Commission even today is illegal because the fact that once I appeal to Rome or to the Holy Father it is required by Canon Law and by my Bishop to forward that to Rome, it was not forwarded though I forwarded it to Rome via other means which I have to my disposal and still nothing was acted upon it so therefore how can the Commission continue and it has been ignored ever since.
And third of all, it is the duty of my Bishop to defend me until proven guilty. The fact is that when I first asked my Bishop here in Wollongong, Bishop Wilson, to open the investigation I appealed to him as a soul seeking advice, seeking help from the Diocese and I have been ignored already for some nearly fifteen years and I have appealed constantly over and over again for that help.
Now, I had to use the civil law nearly to produce that help and it is only finally when I appealed to Bishop Wilson did he concede that I had a right to be heard.
Now, since that time I have also been attacked very heavily by the media as I always have been over many many years and even Bishop Wilson issued the Decree against me and the press had already received all the information even before I even seen, I have never seen Bishop Wilson.
Therefore it is already illegal to proceed in a Commission like this when I made an appeal. I have been totally ignored each time, I have not even received any
advice, any letters to say that that is what they are doing, the Bishop is supposed to notify me within fourteen days and then thirty days that he has already sent the appeal to Rome, nothing has happened.
And Father Woods that is basically the situation.
It is always from my instigation, not from the Church's instigation, this investigation never would occur in 1998 had I not proceeded with two lawyers and barristers and also a Judge of the High Court here in New South Wales to get this going and I also appealed to Cardinal Clancy and even to Rome, to be able to have this meeting. Do you understand?
Fr John Woods: Just to clarify, it would seem that on the one hand your saying the matter has at your instigation gone to Rome therefore this thing is on hold subject to Rome's judication and yet on the other hand you seem to be pushing for a decision locally - could we just clarify - is your desire that the matter be completely referred to Rome or that the due process, to use an expression, at the local level which this process is, that it would continue to a result?
Well, to clarify it Father, yes, I am looking now at the law, right, now the law states very clearly, now first of all Bishop Wilson he already put a null and void into the decision of the Commission before the Commission even sat. Matter of fact the members of the Commission weren't even chosen by that time and that was already one year after the date of the opening of the Commission and Bishop Wilson already made a decision before the Commission was even called together, the decision was to close me down. So, that is already against the canon law because I haven't even been heard yet nor have I presented the case yet, so what is the point of a Commission if I am already totally white washed out of the picture.
So therefore I looked at the canon law and I said okay well then I have the right of appeal if the Commission isn't going to do its work well what's the point.
Fr John Woods: Your right of appeal as you would see it to the decision of Bishop Wilson to in your understanding unilaterally condemn you?
Well he has already done so by the very fact that he has already said from this moment on the Order is closed bang bang bang and I haven't even come to the Commission yet. I haven't sat there yet.
Fr John Woods: But subsequently as you said under pressures from yourself, the civil pressure as you have explained it.
There was a year before that, because you see Father with due respect, sorry for taking your time, but even for you Father as an Advocate I look at this as quite unusual because an advocate of my defence should first of all know who I am, what I am doing, how I am doing things before he can be an Advocate.
Fr John Woods: I would dispute or maybe we could discuss further the role of the Advocate but maybe for the sake of the point of discussion now my line of questioning for your sake as an advocate and for the sake of the discussion this morning - are you recognising the canonical status of the enquiry presently being held?
Not entirely, I tell you why, because first of all out of respect for all concerned I wanted to explain, I wanted to answer the questions so you are fully aware of my thoughts and that will still go on record anyway but the point is this that if some, going back early this year, where Bishop Wilson already put me in null and void which is against the Commission's invoking because otherwise why invoke a Commission when the Commission hasn't even been put together yet and you already have made a decision, so therefore it leaves me no alternative to say okay Bishop Wilson if you have already made the decision before the Commission even sits together you give you no choice, I have to appeal to protect my own rights as a Catholic and that is what I have done.
Now, but since that time I have heard nothing, first of all I have heard nothing from Rome, I have heard nothing from my Diocesan Bishop, all he said is from Father Kevin is the Commission is continuing, this is what we are going to do but the Commission had not even been elected, do you understand. So, where does my appeal then come in, that means that the Commission is already null and void because my appeal should be already in Rome according to the law, Bishop Wilson should have already advised me that the appeal has already gone to Rome, do you understand what I am saying, so therefore according to canon law if we are going according to the law this Commission is null and void right from the start.
Fr John Woods: In fairness to you now I can hear what you are saying, I wouldn't presume that your understanding is canonically correct though I respect your interpretation of it, and obviously the very process will require a definitive ruling in due course with respect to your status of Bishop Wilson's decision, appeal and this process so maybe the point I think that is being made is that the canonical status of what we are doing you would be questioning if I could put it that way?
Well not in its entirety because (in the chronology, the way things have sequentially developed) that is correct. In that way I would say that this is well if you call it illegal it is illegal in the sense of illegality but it is still important because I am still interested in the Commission, I am still interested in Bishop Wilson's decisions and also his acknowledgement.
But have you been advised by Rome?
Because you see if Rome had advised that then Rome would advise me too because it has to because I am the main principal or the principal person involved so therefore I would have to be advised, Rome has decided that Bishop Wilson continue and I would accept that anyway, so I have no problems about that at all. And I am really happy that this has already proceeded anyway.
Fr Kevin: Was there anything else you wanted to say?
No, Father all to say is that, the only thing I would ask is what will proceed after this?
Fr John Woods: It could happen could it not, there might be need for further interviews?
But are you aware Father that whatever the Commission decides even what Bishop Wilson decides in the end if it is negative ... you have every right to appeal ... yes I would anyway.
Fr Kevin: And that is one of the things we must make clear and will be made clear in the published report is that your rights to have recourse to Rome are made clear.Thank you for coming.